How to do ethical non monogamy?
Can a monogamous couple become nonmonogamous? Of course, they can — but do these couples survive and thrive? What are the pitfalls and what are the pleasures?
More and more I’m seeing couples in my practice of all ages who have always been in monogamous relationships but now are seriously thinking about opening up their relationships. They are young couples just starting out, couples with young kids and a mortgage, and empty nesters looking to find their wings.
The reasons for taking the leap vary. Often one or both partners may be feeling sexually dissatisfied in the primary relationship — it may be boredom, mismatched libidos or a desire to explore new horizons. Sometimes there’s a hunger for the excitement and energy that come when people first connect with someone new. It’s also possible one or both partners don’t believe in monogamy. For some couples, sex has always been an issue, even though the rest of the relationship works.
No matter the reason, interest in nonmonogamy — participation in nonexclusive sexual relationships — is on the rise. In a 2020 study of 822 currently monogamous people by Kinsey Institute research fellow Justin Lehmiller, nearly one-third said that having an open relationship was their favorite sexual fantasy, and 80% wanted to act on it.
What happens if your relationship starts off as monogamous, and you or your partner change your mind? That doesn’t have to doom your relationship, Lehmiller said. “Research suggests that relationship quality is actually quite similar in monogamous and consensually nonmonogamous relationships,” he said. “Both relationship styles can work well — and both can fail, too.”
I believe the key to successful nonmonogamy is in one word: consensual. Known as ethical nonmonogamy, this approach is different from monogamous relationships in which partners cheat on each other. An ethically nonmonogamous relationship involves two people who identify as a couple but who are not committed to a traditional relationship, according to sexologist Yvonne Fulbright.
“They’ve given each other the opportunity to date or have sex with other people independently,” said Fulbright, who is based in Iceland. “Often a key component in these relationships working out is that the other relationship is only sexual, not romantic or emotional. There’s no deception about engaging in sex with others.”
Some couples may find ethical nonmonogamy easier than others. That includes those who have discussed the possibility of an open relationship from the beginning as well as LGBTQ couples. “In my experience, gay and queer couples have more ease with nonmonogamy,” New York-based sex therapist Dulcinea Alex Pitagora said.
“They’ve had to do more introspection and communication around their sexual or gender identity,” Pitagora said. “This additional time spent understanding who they are, what they want, and learning how to communicate it dovetails very smoothly into communicating about nonmonogamy.”
For couples who choose to open their relationships ethically, there can be benefits. “Nonmonogamy can be fulfilling and a catalyst for self-growth,” Wisconsin-based sex therapist Madelyn Esposito said. “This self-growth can deepen understanding and desire for your primary partner as you have the space to explore yourself and your own sexual needs outside of relational confines.”
In an open relationship there is often less pressure to have all your sexual needs met from your partner, Florida-based sex therapist Rachel Needle said. “And there is less pressure on you to meet all of your partner’s sexual needs. This gives you the opportunity to enjoy sexual activity with your partner but do it without added tension or anxiety.”
Sometimes the heat generated outside the bedroom even finds its way back into the primary relationship. “Many nonmonogamous folks find that partner variety revs up their libido, and that this transfers over into increased sex in the primary relationship,” Lehmiller said. “Something else we’ve found in our research is that, beyond sex, these relationships can also mutually reinforce each other. Specifically, being more satisfied with a secondary partner actually predicts being more committed to the primary partner.”
But making the leap into ethical nonmonogamy isn’t always easy for couples who have been historically monogamous. Often, one partner is “driving,” and the other is a reluctant passenger going along for the ride. Sometimes a couple can’t agree on what constitutes nonmonogamy (casual sex with different people versus repeatedly seeing one person), or they can’t agree on rules (posting a profile online, staying overnight, bringing someone home, no kissing).
One partner might be worried about the social stigma if others find out or just can’t get beyond all the cultural messaging that idealizes monogamy. Nonmonogamy can trigger strong feelings such as jealousy and possessiveness. “Even bringing it up as a curiosity can feel threatening to some couples/partners,” Fulbright said.
What should you consider if ethical nonmonogamy is on your mind?
There are any number of positive motivators for couples to try nonmonogamy, but what you don’t want to do is rely on nonmonogamy to slap a Band-Aid on existing problems. “Using nonmonogamy to fix a relationship is as effective as having a baby to fix a relationship — it’s a terrible idea,” said Rebecca Sokoll, a psychotherapist in New York City. “You need a strong and healthy relationship to make the transition to nonmonogamy.”
Don’t do it to distance yourself from your partner. “Ethical nonmonogamy can also be a defense mechanism, a delay tactic, a hide-and-seek game and an aversion to closeness,” said Minnesota-based psychotherapist Hanna Zipes Basel, who specializes in this area. “I see couples succeed when they enter nonmonogamy with an already secure functioning relationship, when they are both equally desiring nonmonogamy, and/or they have had prior experience or done their homework.”
“Get educated on the wide array of philosophies, structures and agreements that are possible in the ethical nonmonogamy world through books, podcasts and articles,” suggested sex therapist Sari Cooper, who directs the Center for Love and Sex in New York. “Journal about what each of you is looking for through this transition and discuss these goals with your partner to see if you’re on the same page and, if not, what overlaps or compromises might work.”
There’s no doubt that ethical nonmonogamy requires communication — and lots of it. “I suggest a ‘what if’ conversation before anyone takes anything into action,” Los Angeles-based sex therapist Tammy Nelson advised. “Talking about the potential positives as well as the pitfalls of a possible exploration can prevent problems that could come up later. The more you talk about the issues before they happen the better.”
A therapist experience in working with couples pursuing ethical nonmonogamy can help you weigh the potential pros and cons, guide you through the process and provide you with a neutral, safe space to discuss things.
Determine what ethical nonmonogamy looks like to you both and agree on your parameters — more rigid rules may be best when starting out — and plan to keep the conversation going.
“I see dozens of couples a year who come to therapy to try and negotiate their expectations in advance,” said Kimberly Resnick Anderson, a sex therapist in Los Angeles. “Couples who do their homework ahead of time have a much better success rate than couples who jump right in without preparation.
“Even couples who prep responsibly are often surprised by their reactions to certain situations and need to renegotiate boundaries.”
In my professional experience, the couples who succeed at nonmonogamy often don’t require many rules at all, because they trust each other, prioritize the primary relationship and hold each other in mind throughout the process.
If ethical nonmonogamy doesn’t work for you — or leads to a breakup — that doesn’t mean it’s a loss. “Consider a couple with children who, without ethical nonmonogamy, would have split up, and for whom nonmonogamy stabilizes their relationship,” New Jersey-based sex therapist Margie Nichols said.
“Eventually, that stability doesn’t last, but ethical nonmonogamy allows the couple to uncouple consciously and take time with the process,” Nichols said. “Because of the thoughtfulness, the family can remain living together or near each other and still love and care for each other, and there is no bitterness or rancor between the two. I’d call that a success — despite divorce.”
In the end, couples who succeed are fiercely committed to their primary relationship: They protect it, cherish it and care for it. They ensure that their foundation is solid and secure, and they continue to grow and expand as a couple in ways beyond sex. Nonmonogamy may be an exciting new chapter for a couple, but it doesn’t mean the story of their relationship comes to an end. It should feel like an exciting beginning.
Though the majority of couples in our society are monogamous, meaning that once partnered with one another they do not have romantic or sexual relationships with anyone else, about one in five people engage in non-monogamous relationships at some point in their lives.
This article discusses the types of non-monogamous relationships, why people choose them, and how to practice them in a way that is safe and fulfilling for all parties involved.
There are numerous ways to practice ethical non-monogamy, all of which involve open communication between all parties involved.
Although it may not be the default way to conduct romantic relationships, assorted forms of non-monogamy have grown in popularity in recent years.
ENM can present in a relationship in many different ways. It may involve one person acting outside of the relationship or both parties doing that. It may involve only sexual connections with others, only romantic connections, or both romantic and sexual connections.
Even if both people in the primary relationship practice ENM, they may have different habits in relation to the emotional connections they establish with their romantic and/or sexual partners.
What separates ethical non-monogamy from cheating is that no matter what type of ethical non-monogamy you practice in your relationship, both people in the relationship consent to it.
With cheating, the partner does not consent. ENM isn't cheating because both you and your partner have agreed in advance that you'll be practicing non-monogamy.
There are many reasons to desire an ethically non-monogamous relationship setup. These are just a few of them:
Ethical non-monogamy is an umbrella term. That means that an assortment of different individual relationship models fall under the broad definition of it.
What they all have in common is that the relationship is not fully monogamous and that everyone involved consents to being in that type of relationship.
It's worth noting that you can practice ENM without following one of the below relationship models. Relationships are composed of whatever the people in them agree on, and you don't have to stick to the rules of any existing relationship models.
Some couples who practice ENM do not subscribe to any other relationship models. They simply make their own rules about what is and isn't acceptable for their individual relationship, and then they follow them.
Polyamory is probably the most well-known version of ethical non-monogamy. Like ENM at large, polyamory can be done in many different ways.
In one model, several people are all in a relationship together. Another model involves a pair of two individuals who are each committed to additional partners of their own. In other cases, one person in a relationship may be poly and have numerous partners, but one or more of their partners might not have, or want, any other partners themselves.
Polyamorous relationships rely on communication between parties about matters from safe sex to emotions. Polyamory may involve a long-term commitment to more than one person simultaneously. The word polycule is often used to describe a connected polyamorous network.
Unlike polyamory, open relationships do not generally involve a commitment to parties outside of a two-person relationship. This relationship model is most known for partners being able to pursue outside sexual connections, but it may involve romantic and/or emotional connections with others as well.
However, these are usually conducted under the premise that the primary, two-person relationship is the most prioritized.
Don't be scared by the word anarchy; relationship anarchy isn't trying to overthrow anything but conventional ways of being in relationships. It's a model wherein the people involved don't use hierarchical terms for partners or think of them in terms of priority. It contrasts with relationship hierarchy, in which there is a primary relationship that gets most of a person's attention.
In relationship anarchy, everyone is equal. An individual won't necessarily view a romantic relationship as more important than a friendship, and they may not even categorize their relationships as strictly platonic, romantic, and/or sexual. This model is centered around personal freedom and autonomy.
Popularized by writer Dan Savage, monogamish is the term for couples who are mostly monogamous but occasionally take part in outside sexual relationships.
People who are monogamish tend to focus on outside sexual encounters only, not romantic connections with others besides their partner. They also may go long periods of time in between outside sexual encounters.
Famous mostly as a biblical or religious practice, polygamy is when one person has multiple spouses. This can be one husband having multiple wives or one wife with multiple husbands, but it is best known as the former.
Polygamy is not legal in the United States. Though it may be practiced ethically, there have been cases that have involved coercion and exploitation.
Nothing is more important to a successful ethically non-monogamous relationship than open communication. Before embarking on the journey of a new relationship style, you and your partner should make sure you are on the same page about what you both want.
As we shift into a progressively more open society, many people believe that the "e" in "ENM" should be dropped. Entire essays have been written about this. The idea that monogamy is the only inherently ethical relationship model and that all others must be qualified with the word in front of them to denote that they, too, have morality is one that stems from colonialism.
- Humans are capable of loving more than one person at a time.
- Non-monogamy is a valid alternative to monogamy.
- Decide if it's the right path for you.
- If you're already in a relationship, proceed with care.
- Connect with the ENM community.
- Understand jealousy well.
When the idea of relationships came into being, people believed them to be binary. However, as the world continued to evolve, the meaning got broader, and the term ethical non-monogamy was added. Just like other types of relationships, such as “friends with benefits,” ethical non-monogamy was added. It’s a complicated form of relationship in the urban world. So, without any further ado, keep reading to know more.
Ethical non-monogamy is a type of relationship where the partners are free to explore physical or romantic relationships with other people. Unlike conventional non-monogamy, partners in ethical non-monogamy give consent to one another to have intimate interactions with other individuals. Therefore, the most notable hallmark of this form of relationship is that all parties are willing to be in this type of relationship.
Although it’s easy to lump all ethical non-monogamy together, there are many types of ethical non-monogamy. Each of these applies to different individuals and caters to various desires and levels of comfort.
Polygamy is older than conventional monogamist marriages in many societies around the world. Some religions permit people to have several spouses, a widespread practice in some countries. Although this has its own set of advantages and disadvantages, and there are often problems associated with polygamy in the religious context. Polygamous relationships may be safe if all parties agree.
Swinging is likely one of the earliest known forms of non-monogamy outside of marriage. Swinging typically entails two or more couples consensually swapping romantic partners to have physical relations with someone else.
This is a relatively common type of non-monogamy with a reasonably well-established social subset of people who practice it (“Swingers”). It may also include having a third romantic partner of either gender or even multiple partners in a group environment, rather than simply “swapping” partners or spouses.
The word “open relationships” refers to those who enjoy being in a relationship but will often participate in romantic or physical acts with other people, with their partner’s permission and approval. It is not limited by age or gender and often involves bringing other people into a couple’s romantic life. However, most open relationships have pre-established guidelines that adherents are supposed to follow for their pleasure, protection, and to prevent unwanted feelings, such as envy.
A few aspects of Polyamorous relationships are similar to open relationships. However, polyamorous interactions are not limited to intimate relations. Instead, it is about forging full-fledged romantic relationships with other people. A person in a polyamorous relationship will have a romantic, love-based relationship with people beyond their primary romantic partner. Such relationships involve going on dates or celebrating anniversaries with other partners.
Polyaffective relationship is a non-intimate relationship between two individuals usually related to one another through a polyamorous relationship. For example, two persons in a polyamorous or open relationship with the same person could become close to one another, but without any intimacy in the equation. Such individuals could be considered to be in a polyaffective relationship.
People in polyaffective relationships could be in a heterosexual or same-gender polyamorous relationship. They typically regard each other as good friends or best friends.
Relationship anarchy is a niche of non-monogamous individuals who do not like to give a conventional definition to their relationship at all. Rather than adhering to relationship expectations and meanings, they prefer to have an organic relationship that can develop and adapt according to both partner’s needs and desires.
They are frequently critical of relationship definitions that categorize people based on their physical preferences or marital status. They oppose the idea of defined rules and limits in a relationship, believing that love should push the boundaries of a relationship rather than imposed restrictions. They firmly believe that people can have a fulfilling relationship without conforming to societal expectations or compromising their needs.
Although people who are ethically non-monogamous can practice polygyny (having multiple wives) and polyandry (having multiple husbands), polyamory is based on having romantic feelings for more than one individual.
“Poly” means “multiple,” and “Amor” means “love.” Polyamory differentiates itself by its intent to explore physical or romantic tendencies with multiple partners simultaneously. Three polyamorous people may not want to be in a relationship with someone outside the trio, while a non-monogamous couple or trio might be open to such a relationship. Therefore, non-monogamy may include polyamory, but it is not synonymous with it.
Ethical non-monogamy could include other aspects of a relationship, such as love and emotional intimacy. However, open relationships are often focused on having physical relationships freely outside a committed relationship. Thus, the predominantly intimate nature of the person’s desires when seeking an external relationship differentiates plain or standard ethical non-monogamous relationships from open relationships.
People in open relationships also tend to avoid investing too much emotional energy in their partners because their primary motivation is to have another (or multiple) romantic partners with their partner’s consent. Many open relationships have rules to ensure that neither party is too emotionally invested in the relationship to prevent crossing the line from casual to serious.
Non-monogamy can get messy and complicated. Before entering into an ethical non-monogamous relationship, one must develop rules to prevent things from becoming complicated. We have compiled a list of some rules that non-monogamous couples may follow.
If one pursues non-monogamy and their partner is not on board, things could go wrong in a partnership or marriage. In reality, this removes the “ethical” aspect of the “ethical non-monogamy” since doing so without the partner’s consent is unethical and immoral.
It could hurt your partner and cause friction, resulting in the loss of your relationship or marriage. If infidelity is illegal where you live, you will face legal consequences if you pursue a romantic or physical relationship outside your marriage. However, it should be noted that non-monogamy should not be forced on the partner. Oftentimes, some partners give their consent, fearing losing the partner. Hence, this should be taken care of.
Another important aspect of being ethical and safe is to keep your partner informed if you engage in romantic or lovemaking with someone else. Even if they are aware of it, it is essential to remind them before the next encounter to ensure that they are still okay with what you will do and with whom.
Establishing boundaries is crucial if you and your partner are in a non-monogamous relationship to prevent conflict and fallout. There could be certain activities that you would like to keep between you and your partner and not share with someone else.
It could be intimate or something as simple as not taking the other person to your favorite restaurant or introducing them to your family. The secret to making this relationship work is that everyone is equally willing and comfortable observing certain limits.
A primary partner is the starting point for the majority of non-monogamous partnerships. Therefore, it is crucial to prioritize your primary partner. It means giving more importance to your primary partner in situations where they need more attention.
If you and your primary partner have a common relationship with another person, they must accept that you are a couple who will be closer to one another than them.
There will certainly be a hierarchy if you and your partner are in a non-monogamous relationship with a person or multiple common people. This must be made clear to you, your partner, and other persons involved. It can help prevent one or more people from getting emotionally involved and hurt their feelings at some point.
When more than two people are romantically involved, there is often space for jealousy. If you encounter such a situation, deal with it calmly, focusing on the resolution rather than proving who is at fault. Discuss the issue and the solutions unanimously so that all are on the same page regarding the relationship.
Not everyone is comfortable in coming out with their non-monogamous relationship status. Ensure you or your partner respect any of the involved party’s privacy and keep the relationship to yourself. Avoid talking about your relationship or making it obvious in public places. Select a dedicated place with adequate privacy where you may express your feelings without letting anyone else know.
Having multiple partners inadvertently increases the risk of contracting venereal diseases . It may also lead to unwanted pregnancy due to carelessness. Your safety and that of your partners should be paramount in an ethical non-monogamous relationship. Use protection and set rules for intimacy. You can even go a step further and ensure all the parties involved undergo periodic tests for leading venereal diseases to ensure maximum safety.
Although many people may not favor non-monogamous relationships, there is an upcoming trend where many couples prefer it. The advent of dating apps and other internet-based platforms has made it easier for people to forge such relationships. Despite the flexibility of approach, an ethical non-monogamous relationship works best when all partners provide voluntary consent and respect one another’s privacy and safety.
Can a monogamous couple become nonmonogamous? Of course, they can — but do these couples survive and thrive? What are the pitfalls and what are the pleasures?
More and more I’m seeing couples in my practice of all ages who have always been in monogamous relationships but now are seriously thinking about opening up their relationships. They are young couples just starting out, couples with young kids and a mortgage, and empty nesters looking to find their wings.
The reasons for taking the leap vary. Often one or both partners may be feeling sexually dissatisfied in the primary relationship — it may be boredom, mismatched libidos or a desire to explore new horizons. Sometimes there’s a hunger for the excitement and energy that come when people first connect with someone new. It’s also possible one or both partners don’t believe in monogamy. For some couples, sex has always been an issue, even though the rest of the relationship works.
No matter the reason, interest in nonmonogamy — participation in nonexclusive sexual relationships — is on the rise. In a 2020 study of 822 currently monogamous people by Kinsey Institute research fellow Justin Lehmiller, nearly one-third said that having an open relationship was their favorite sexual fantasy, and 80% wanted to act on it.
What happens if your relationship starts off as monogamous, and you or your partner change your mind? That doesn’t have to doom your relationship, Lehmiller said. “Research suggests that relationship quality is actually quite similar in monogamous and consensually nonmonogamous relationships,” he said. “Both relationship styles can work well — and both can fail, too.”
I believe the key to successful nonmonogamy is in one word: consensual. Known as ethical nonmonogamy, this approach is different from monogamous relationships in which partners cheat on each other. An ethically nonmonogamous relationship involves two people who identify as a couple but who are not committed to a traditional relationship, according to sexologist Yvonne Fulbright.
“They’ve given each other the opportunity to date or have sex with other people independently,” said Fulbright, who is based in Iceland. “Often a key component in these relationships working out is that the other relationship is only sexual, not romantic or emotional. There’s no deception about engaging in sex with others.”
Some couples may find ethical nonmonogamy easier than others. That includes those who have discussed the possibility of an open relationship from the beginning as well as LGBTQ couples. “In my experience, gay and queer couples have more ease with nonmonogamy,” New York-based sex therapist Dulcinea Alex Pitagora said.
“They’ve had to do more introspection and communication around their sexual or gender identity,” Pitagora said. “This additional time spent understanding who they are, what they want, and learning how to communicate it dovetails very smoothly into communicating about nonmonogamy.”
For couples who choose to open their relationships ethically, there can be benefits. “Nonmonogamy can be fulfilling and a catalyst for self-growth,” Wisconsin-based sex therapist Madelyn Esposito said. “This self-growth can deepen understanding and desire for your primary partner as you have the space to explore yourself and your own sexual needs outside of relational confines.”
In an open relationship there is often less pressure to have all your sexual needs met from your partner, Florida-based sex therapist Rachel Needle said. “And there is less pressure on you to meet all of your partner’s sexual needs. This gives you the opportunity to enjoy sexual activity with your partner but do it without added tension or anxiety.”
Sometimes the heat generated outside the bedroom even finds its way back into the primary relationship. “Many nonmonogamous folks find that partner variety revs up their libido, and that this transfers over into increased sex in the primary relationship,” Lehmiller said. “Something else we’ve found in our research is that, beyond sex, these relationships can also mutually reinforce each other. Specifically, being more satisfied with a secondary partner actually predicts being more committed to the primary partner.”
But making the leap into ethical nonmonogamy isn’t always easy for couples who have been historically monogamous. Often, one partner is “driving,” and the other is a reluctant passenger going along for the ride. Sometimes a couple can’t agree on what constitutes nonmonogamy (casual sex with different people versus repeatedly seeing one person), or they can’t agree on rules (posting a profile online, staying overnight, bringing someone home, no kissing).
One partner might be worried about the social stigma if others find out or just can’t get beyond all the cultural messaging that idealizes monogamy. Nonmonogamy can trigger strong feelings such as jealousy and possessiveness. “Even bringing it up as a curiosity can feel threatening to some couples/partners,” Fulbright said.
What should you consider if ethical nonmonogamy is on your mind?
There are any number of positive motivators for couples to try nonmonogamy, but what you don’t want to do is rely on nonmonogamy to slap a Band-Aid on existing problems. “Using nonmonogamy to fix a relationship is as effective as having a baby to fix a relationship — it’s a terrible idea,” said Rebecca Sokoll, a psychotherapist in New York City. “You need a strong and healthy relationship to make the transition to nonmonogamy.”
Don’t do it to distance yourself from your partner. “Ethical nonmonogamy can also be a defense mechanism, a delay tactic, a hide-and-seek game and an aversion to closeness,” said Minnesota-based psychotherapist Hanna Zipes Basel, who specializes in this area. “I see couples succeed when they enter nonmonogamy with an already secure functioning relationship, when they are both equally desiring nonmonogamy, and/or they have had prior experience or done their homework.”
“Get educated on the wide array of philosophies, structures and agreements that are possible in the ethical nonmonogamy world through books, podcasts and articles,” suggested sex therapist Sari Cooper, who directs the Center for Love and Sex in New York. “Journal about what each of you is looking for through this transition and discuss these goals with your partner to see if you’re on the same page and, if not, what overlaps or compromises might work.”
There’s no doubt that ethical nonmonogamy requires communication — and lots of it. “I suggest a ‘what if’ conversation before anyone takes anything into action,” Los Angeles-based sex therapist Tammy Nelson advised. “Talking about the potential positives as well as the pitfalls of a possible exploration can prevent problems that could come up later. The more you talk about the issues before they happen the better.”
A therapist experience in working with couples pursuing ethical nonmonogamy can help you weigh the potential pros and cons, guide you through the process and provide you with a neutral, safe space to discuss things.
Determine what ethical nonmonogamy looks like to you both and agree on your parameters — more rigid rules may be best when starting out — and plan to keep the conversation going.
“I see dozens of couples a year who come to therapy to try and negotiate their expectations in advance,” said Kimberly Resnick Anderson, a sex therapist in Los Angeles. “Couples who do their homework ahead of time have a much better success rate than couples who jump right in without preparation.
“Even couples who prep responsibly are often surprised by their reactions to certain situations and need to renegotiate boundaries.”
In my professional experience, the couples who succeed at nonmonogamy often don’t require many rules at all, because they trust each other, prioritize the primary relationship and hold each other in mind throughout the process.
If ethical nonmonogamy doesn’t work for you — or leads to a breakup — that doesn’t mean it’s a loss. “Consider a couple with children who, without ethical nonmonogamy, would have split up, and for whom nonmonogamy stabilizes their relationship,” New Jersey-based sex therapist Margie Nichols said.
“Eventually, that stability doesn’t last, but ethical nonmonogamy allows the couple to uncouple consciously and take time with the process,” Nichols said. “Because of the thoughtfulness, the family can remain living together or near each other and still love and care for each other, and there is no bitterness or rancor between the two. I’d call that a success — despite divorce.”